Episode 124
Episode #119 - Meeting Guys (& Gals) Where They Are At (Before Burning Out) - An Interview With Simon Rinne
The number of different situations that we endure, whether they are physical, mental, social, cultural, or other means, can be taxing. They can consume not only women, but under the radar, men have always been told to not discuss such subjects, even if they are suffering, in fear of being retaliated against as not being strong enough. Today's guest, however, challenges the status quo of what it means to open up as men. Simon Rinne, founder and owner of Mindful Men, shares his story of transformation as he has undergone these types of pressures in terms of struggle, but how it has been turned into his social worker background in helping others to overcome their own similar struggles. The importance of being able to share what you are going through is important, not only in the sense of community, but to help meet you wherever you are and to find a path towards restoring yourself to be the best that you are, regardless of what you identify as.
Guest Bio
Simon is a social worker and founder of Mindful Men, a therapy practice that is dedicated to supporting men with mental illness and disability. Simon’s passion for mental health comes from living with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD), Depression, Anxiety, and burnout throughout the last 30 years. During this time, he struggled in silence; believing that boys and men can’t cry, all whilst using alcohol as a way to feel “normal”. At the age of 28, Simon finally reached out for help, and ever since has been on a journey of healing. By sharing his story, Simon hopes to inspire others to believe that they can turn their pain into purpose, and move from surviving to thriving.
Facebook Page: https://www.facebook.com/mindful.men.aus/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2050441875316594/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbXBNQmbj4ZQj3rzFAZALTA
Website: https://www.mindful-men.com.au/
Visit Our Website: https://speaking-from-the-heart.captivate.fm/
Visit Our Business Website: https://www.yourspeakingvoice.biz
Support The Mission Of The Business! Donate Here: https://speaking-from-the-heart.captivate.fm/support
Intro/Outro By: Michael Dugan, Podcast Host: Voice4Chefs
Transcript
Welcome to the podcast where relationships, confidence, and
2
:determination all converge into
an amazing, heartfelt experience.
3
:This is Speaking From The Heart.
4
:Joshua: Welcome back to episode
number 119 of Speaking from the Heart.
5
:Today we have yet another
international guest coming from
6
:the great country of Australia.
7
:His name is Simon Rinne, and Simon is a
social worker and founder of Mindful Men.
8
:Mindful Men, a therapy practice
that is dedicated to supporting men
9
:with mental illness and disability.
10
:Simon's passion for mental health
comes from living with obsessive
11
:compulsive disorder, better known as
OCD, depression, anxiety, and also
12
:burnout throughout the last 30 years.
13
:During this time, he struggled in
silence, believing that boys and
14
:men can't cry, all while using
alcohol as a way to feel normal.
15
:At the age of 28, Simon finally reached
out for help, and ever since then,
16
:has been on a journey of healing.
17
:By sharing his story, Simon hopes to
inspire others to believe that they
18
:can turn their pain into purpose,
and move from surviving to thriving.
19
:I don't think I would have ever met my
doppelganger that has been through so
20
:much to get to where they are today, to
even open their own practice, their own
21
:business, to be able to help others,
especially with men who I think are so
22
:undervalued in today's society, given
the fact that we've been told all of our
23
:lives that we should not be showing any
type of emotion, that we should be the
24
:stronger person, but I think today, you're
going to be surprised by not only what
25
:I've just shared, but also what Simon
even elaborates on that just shocks me,
26
:to the core, of not only what he's been
through, but how he keeps moving himself
27
:to the other side, because essentially
it isn't just about men or women, but
28
:it's about what we are dealing with as a
whole, which is a lot of different issues
29
:that humanity needs to start focusing
on instead of fighting each other.
30
:If we're ever going to make progress,
it means that we have to stop looking
31
:at things that we think we need to
be, and become something that we
32
:ever thought we could be instead.
33
:But with that, let's go to the episode.
34
:Alright, we're here with Simon Rinne.
35
:Simon!
36
:Thanks for sharing your
heart with us today.
37
:Simon: Josh, thanks for having me.
38
:I'm really excited to be here
and looking forward to our chat.
39
:Joshua: Absolutely, and I want to
acknowledge the fact that maybe people
40
:already noticed with your accent that
you are from the great country of
41
:Australia, which I've always enjoyed
having guests on the show coming
42
:from other places, so thanks for
taking some time with the huge time
43
:difference to be able to do this today.
44
:Simon: No, my pleasure.
45
:It's nice and early here, so I'm an
early starter, and love coming on
46
:the shows all over around the world.
47
:I do this all the time as we're
talking about off air and really enjoy
48
:talking about what we're about to talk
about with people just from different
49
:walks of life, so excited to be here.
50
:Joshua: I am too, and speaking of that,
my audience heard a little bit about your
51
:background, and I'm really am excited
by the fact that you've been through so
52
:much, which I know sounds really weird
to say excited, because there's a lot
53
:of different things that you've been
through, but for somebody like myself,
54
:I've actually been through a lot of these
different things: depression, anxiety.
55
:I've had suicide thoughts
about four years ago.
56
:I've gotten over that hurdle.
57
:It's been an incredible journey to
get to that side, and I'm really
58
:interested in your story to start off
as to how you got to where you are
59
:and where you situated yourself today,
so I'm wondering if you could tell
60
:a little bit about your pain story.
61
:I think that's the way to capsulate it
because it's turned it into your purpose.
62
:Simon: Yeah, absolutely, so turned
last year; so what's-:
63
:year, turning 41, and my story
spans over for the majority of my
64
:life, so for 30 odd years or so, I
lived with mental health conditions.
65
:I still live with mental
health conditions, but they're
66
:not as prevalent these days.
67
:They're not as painful these days as
they used to be, but I grew up in the
68
:eighties, nineties, in a place called
Adelaide, South Australia, so it's
69
:a little bit different to where I'm
living at the moment, and during those
70
:eighties, nineties, it was a period of
time, and a place in the world, where
71
:mental health discussions weren't a thing.
72
:In fact, it was quite the opposite.
73
:It was to be a boy, to be a man was to
be someone who would suck everything
74
:up to carry on, to move on, to bury
everything deep down and dare not talk
75
:about your vulnerabilities or your
authenticity as a boy, because if you
76
:did, you'd be labeled as gay, or a girl,
or a wuss, or a sissy, all these types
77
:of things, which a lot of people don't
want to be labeled those types of things.
78
:They want to be seen for who they really
are, but for me, and for so many other
79
:boys and men, not just in Australia,
but around the world, it's a period of
80
:time where they had to bury it all down.
81
:They had to put on this persona of being
strong, and so forth, and this really
82
:became important for me around eight
years old when I developed obsessive
83
:compulsive disorder, and for the next
20 years, that remained undiagnosed.
84
:I really struggled with my mind
and racing at a million miles an
85
:hour, and doing these behaviors to
alleviate anxiety that rose through
86
:obsessive compulsive disorder.
87
:Didn't know what OCD was back then.
88
:In fact, I didn't know what it was
until I was 28 and diagnosed, and
89
:during that period as well, there's
bouts of depression, bouts of anxiety.
90
:In my teens, mom and dad separated, so
I became the man of the house, whatever
91
:that looked like in the eighties and
nineties, and, felt this overwhelming need
92
:to protect and to be safe, and to feel
safe, and all this type of stuff, and
93
:this is where my OCD really ramped up
and I would spend hours and hours each
94
:day checking doors, locks, checking
gates were closed, checking that irons
95
:weren't going to burn the house down.
96
:All these types of things to try and keep
us safe, and it almost nearly killed me.
97
:I got to a point where I didn't want
to continue living anymore, and these
98
:were my darkest days in my early teenage
years, but those dark days spanned
99
:probably the next decade as well.
100
:I found alcohol, used alcohol to
suppress everything, to feel normal,
101
:to slow the mind, to have relief, but
also to feel joy again as well, and
102
:so I struggled with all this stuff.
103
:Didn't know what it was though.
104
:Struggled internally,
tried to out think it.
105
:Tried to go for a run, to out run it,
if that makes sense, and it was 28 that
106
:I got diagnosed after a few years of
encouragement from my now wife to go
107
:and see someone about my mental health,
and I really didn't know what to expect
108
:going into a doctor's office, or to a
psychologist's clinic, and I expected
109
:a magic wand to be waved, and I'd be
healed, and that didn't happen, and
110
:so from that point, about 11 years ago
now, been on a continuous, I guess,
111
:journey of discovery about what works
for me, what heals me, what helps, and
112
:over that time I've learned that there
are different people that I get a lot
113
:of value from a therapy perspective.
114
:There's different modalities from
a therapy perspective that I like.
115
:There's an importance for things
like self care, so sleeping
116
:well, eating well, exercising.
117
:One of the more recent pennies that have
dropped for me is that alcohol isn't
118
:the answer to mental health conditions,
and so I got sober at 40, so I've been
119
:sober since 40 years old last August,
and in this process of self discovery,
120
:discovered mindfulness, and that came
about after burning out in:
121
:and recognizing that I can no longer
continue living the life I was living.
122
:One that was, first of all, bottling
everything up for so long, and then
123
:also doing these destructive behaviours,
so the drinking excessively to numb
124
:everything, because I'd become essentially
a shell of a person, and a person
125
:who was living two different lives.
126
:On the outside, it
would be like, "Oh yeah.
127
:Simon's this typical Aussie bloke
who just gets on with things, nothing
128
:fazes him, all this type of stuff.
129
:He's wearing his mask really well.",
but on the internally, all is a
130
:complete shell of a person, even
though I'd done all the things.
131
:I'd had two university degrees; family.
132
:I'd worked in a successful career.
133
:I'd have a house.
134
:There's nothing for me on paper
to complain about, but all those
135
:complaints were internalized from I
guess historical social constructs
136
:of what it means to be a man.
137
:You know, that suck it up mentality, and
I bought into it like so many guys do, so
138
:I've brushed over quite a lot of my life
in terms of the pain, and happy to explore
139
:that, but essentially it just paints the
picture of all these things that I've
140
:struggled with for so long, and in fact,
I thank burnout for happening, because
141
:it was that moment where I started to
actually turn that pain story into one of
142
:thriving, and instead of surviving, and
one of taking it and going, you know what?
143
:I'm going to do something with this.
144
:I'm not just going to sit here
and wallow in my own self pity.
145
:I'm actually going to use this as fuel
for something, and that turned out to
146
:be becoming a social worker and opening
my own therapy clinic dedicated to
147
:men's mental health and disability,
so brushed over it very quickly for
148
:you, but let's unpack it together.
149
:Joshua: Yeah.
150
:Yeah.
151
:Yeah.
152
:I actually do want to unpack a
couple of things, but first off,
153
:I want to celebrate your sobriety.
154
:That's a big deal.
155
:I know a lot of people that are
recovering from alcohol and they have
156
:gone through the gambit of trying to
stay consistent, and I think that you
157
:can almost tie it to eating disorders.
158
:You almost have to stay away from those
because of the triggers that are involved,
159
:and I know some people growing up, even
through college, I knew a young lady
160
:that was anorexic and was definitely
bulimic in nature as well, so there
161
:was a lot of those aspects that I can
associate with what you're saying,
162
:although I never had somebody directly
in my family dealing with alcohol.
163
:I know that that's a big deal, especially
since I still see a therapist after all
164
:this time, and I still see people coming
in to get alcohol treatment, so kudos to
165
:you for accomplishing that more recently.
166
:I'm curious though, because you
mentioned about all these different
167
:diagnoses and a lot of people, especially
today, they like to say, "Well.
168
:Yeah, you have all these things going on.
169
:There's a lot of different things
that you can get help for now as a
170
:result, but man, that's just excuse.
171
:You should suck it up and deal with
it.", and that's been the biggest
172
:problem, especially for males, and you
and I were chatting a little bit about
173
:this beforehand about the fact that
sometimes it's undervalued, especially
174
:fathers that might have a lot of
responsibility, even single men that
175
:carry that shame, that guilt, so I'm
curious, how have you been able to use
176
:that to empower yourself, outside of
even starting Mindful Men, which we'll
177
:talk about soon, but, I'm wondering if
there's been a catalyst, because you
178
:said that the burned out actually help
you to recognize that, so I'm wondering
179
:if you can talk about that a bit.
180
:Simon: As a therapist, like a lot of
people would say, "I'm not my diagnoses.",
181
:or I'm not this, I'm not that.
182
:I'm me, and this part of
me agrees, but a part of me
183
:goes, " What knowledge is power?"
184
:For so long I was powerless
to mental illness.
185
:I didn't know what was going on.
186
:If you don't know what's going on, how
are you going to be able to fix it, or
187
:how are you going to be able to help it?
188
:If your car is making a funny noise,
if you don't go and see a mechanic,
189
:how will you ever know what's actually
wrong with your car, and so finding that
190
:diagnosis, it was empowering back in 2012,
but at the same time, as I said before,
191
:like I expected a magic wand response.
192
:I didn't dive real deep
and go, "Okay, what is OCD?
193
:What's the best treatment for OCD?"
194
:That came later in life after I burned
out, and even burnout, I didn't know what
195
:burnout was until I experienced it, so
I'm sitting in the work office, working in
196
:this high pressure environment where it's
just go, go, go, kind of like a conveyor
197
:belt of administrative work; just never
ends, and so I've got that component.
198
:I was studying my master's
degree in social work.
199
:We'd had two kids under three, this
thing called COVID came along and we
200
:were locked down, and I was working in
this very room at the time when the straw
201
:broke my camel back, if you could say
that, and I remember being on a call with
202
:my manager who was asking me, "Simon.
203
:Why is all this work getting longer
and longer for you to complete?", and I
204
:essentially broke down and cried, and this
is the first time I ever cried in front of
205
:somebody that wasn't my wife, essentially,
and said, "I'm burnt out.", and this
206
:is the start of me taking off this
mask, saying I'm sick of sucking it up.
207
:I'm tired of sucking it up.
208
:I want to just express myself in a
way that means something to me, and
209
:for a lot of guys, that's anger,
but for me it was just crying.
210
:I just wanted to release the pressure
valve of life, and deal with whatever
211
:was going on, and internally, I knew it
was all the mental health stuff as well.
212
:It was all this 30 years of pain, all
the drinking, all that type of stuff.
213
:I knew it all, but I just buried
it deep, and burnout enabled me to
214
:start talking about this type of
stuff and it just coincides with
215
:finding mindfulness, talking to my
GP, talking to a social worker, about
216
:what was going on, and putting life
into context, going, "You know what?"
217
:Getting into your 30s now, it's funny
when we're in our 30s, 40s, we often
218
:still think we're in our early 20s in
our mindset as well, we've, we're like-
219
:Joshua: Yes!
220
:Simon: Indestructible-
221
:Joshua: Yes!
222
:Simon: We had the same
beliefs or similar beliefs.
223
:We have similar interests as
well, all this type of stuff,
224
:and so it was a recognition that
I wasn't that person anymore.
225
:I'm older, I'm more mature.
226
:I've got kids now.
227
:I'm moving towards becoming a therapist
and I've got to be a therapist.
228
:I've got to act like a therapist
and think like a therapist.
229
:I can't act like this 20 year old version
of me, kind of stuck in time, like on a
230
:loop in my mind, and so burnout enabled
me to talk about stuff, and gave me this
231
:confidence, and it did so because part
of my recovery from burnout was sharing
232
:the story more broadly, and I felt this
sense of people can finally see me for
233
:who I was by sharing that story, and that
looked like, going back to work after
234
:about four months off, and talking to
the office about burnout, because I knew
235
:other people were struggling, and they
just didn't know what burnout was, or
236
:mental health, and I wanted to normalize
mental health discussions and bring it
237
:to the forefront, and COVID, I think
enabled that, because you were working
238
:from home for such a long time, and now
lockdowns, and businesses and managers
239
:would start calling us, and every week,
and say, "How is your mental health?
240
:How are you going?"
241
:First time ever in my
career that anyone did that.
242
:Anyone cared about that type of stuff,
so I'm like, you know what, I'm taking
243
:this ticket and I'm going to jump on
this train, and I'm going to start
244
:sharing, and it felt amazing, so I
didn't want us to stop there, and it
245
:led to me starting my own podcast and
my For Men Podcast, my social media,
246
:eventually my business as well, and I
just felt this empowering energy come
247
:through me, going, "You know what?
248
:I'm done with the pain.
249
:It's time to start moving forward.", and
I've seen so many eyes light up when I'm
250
:sharing the story, not just in podcasts,
but in my family, my wife, my kids.
251
:They see what I'm doing with
Mindful Man; they love it.
252
:They've got their little Mindful Man
t-shirts and hats and all the merch, and
253
:they're coming along for the ride, but
it's also in the work that I do in my
254
:therapy clinic, seeing guys open up, and
me sharing some of that story to help
255
:them and inspire them to open up, and it's
an amazing feeling, but for so long, I
256
:didn't do it, and I wish I did it earlier,
but I just didn't have those words.
257
:It didn't have the know how; the drive.
258
:You know, I was so self
absorbed in my own pain.
259
:Couldn't see the forest from
the trees, if that makes sense.
260
:Joshua: Oh!
261
:Not only does that make sense,
but it has flashbacks for me.
262
:I'm sitting here thinking
about what had happened to me.
263
:My audience knows this from those
that have been following since episode
264
:one for me, because I've shared a lot
about my journey with other guests, but
265
:to give you the cliff notes version,
Simon, I definitely had that the
266
:day before my thirty third birthday.
267
:That was when it all went down, and it
was about three or four weeks before
268
:the COVID shutdown itself, so that was
the double whammy in my life, and that
269
:made me realize I have a supportive
boss, which at the time I did.
270
:She completely understood what was
happening and made me feel like I was okay
271
:to process that and deal with it, but the
second thing that you said is navigating
272
:through that to get to your calling,
which it took me about a year before I
273
:finally realized the darts started to
click because I was putting off the pain.
274
:I was putting off the pain.
275
:I was putting off the pain for so
long, that when it came to actually
276
:digesting it- I was literally talking
about this even the evening before we
277
:did this recording with my therapist.
278
:I put 12 different defense mechanisms
up just to defend myself from all
279
:these different things, so we put
these barriers up, so that makes me
280
:really want to ask this question.
281
:Do you feel satisfied or happy about
what you're doing now, not only in
282
:your life, but in also helping others?
283
:I'm really wondering, as a person that
has gone through this, I often ask
284
:myself, "Do I feel satisfied with it?"
285
:I always have to revisit that question
from time to time, make sure that I'm
286
:doing that reality check, because I
don't want to go down that path ever
287
:again, so I think I'm trying to give
you that opportunity to self check
288
:now and be like, are you doing okay?
289
:Simon: Yes.
290
:Yes and no.
291
:As a small business owner, like
I have my daily struggles in my
292
:small business, but in saying that-
293
:Joshua: Likewise.
294
:Simon: When I set up the business,
and set out this course of becoming
295
:a therapist, I always wanted
to be the guy for another guy.
296
:I wanted to be that guy who I never had
growing up, who I could go and talk to
297
:about stuff, and knowing that I have
a clinic now, a therapy clinic, where
298
:guys come to me to share their story,
I think is a daily reminder that I'm
299
:living that dream, and that I am doing
well and I'm on the right path, and
300
:I'm using that pain for purpose now.
301
:In fact, I have so much purpose, that
my brain can only take so much, but I
302
:have all these ideas that come up of how
we're going to change the world through
303
:a mental health lens, and I get caught,
and this is where I probably went a bit
304
:of my downfall, is I get so excited by
it that I start doing all these little
305
:projects, and then they never come to
fruition because I run out of energy, and
306
:so, for me, it's not so much about not
being well, it's more around sustaining
307
:the energy, because I'm so excited about
what we're doing in Mindful Men, both
308
:from a therapy perspective, but also
a brand, and a community, and all the
309
:things, the ideas that I've got in my
head, for where it's going to go in the
310
:future to support men with mental health
disability all over the world, not just
311
:in Australia, but all over the world.
312
:Joshua: That's a big vision, and I think
that that vision is so worthwhile, so
313
:let's talk about it, because you started
Mindful Men, and that was, as you said,
314
:an offshoot of being through all these
different types of things in your life.
315
:I am interested though, because you
are a social worker, which in the
316
:United States, we have our own sort
of regulations when it comes to being
317
:certified being able to work with others,
and unfortunately, I feel that even
318
:nowadays, the United States can do a much
better job with social services, helping
319
:those that are desperately in need.
320
:I know I've could have used one of
these people in my life going through
321
:some of the troubles that I've had, but
I'm kind of curious, from your take,
322
:how's it been to be a social worker,
to have that credential, starting the
323
:business, and also utilizing that to
your advantage, because I wanted to say
324
:earlier, guilty as charged, because of
all those different project ideas too.
325
:Feel like we get super excited in our
craft, and we want to do so many things,
326
:because we've got so much energy, but
not enough time, and we don't have enough
327
:resources, and we have to budget our time,
and our resources, so it's a never ending
328
:vicious cycle, but I'm curious if you
could tell us a little bit about how that
329
:interplay with being a social worker and
starting Mindful Men also came into play.
330
:Simon: Yes.
331
:It takes me back to high school, so
this is a long time ago now, but at
332
:the end of the 90s, and I'm coming
to the end of high school, and
333
:you kind of start thinking, "Okay.
334
:What's next?
335
:What's after high school?", and
in the area that I grew up, very
336
:few people went to university.
337
:In fact, it would come from a
lower socioeconomic location.
338
:Not many people go, and if you do
get in, somehow, you don't tend
339
:to stick around, because where I
grew up it was very working class.
340
:It was trades, a lot of unemployment,
people on welfare, a lot of drugs,
341
:crime, all that type of stuff.
342
:It wasn't a nice place to grow up in
and live, and I'm sorry, mom and dad,
343
:but they still live there, but they
love it there, but not for me, and I
344
:remember saying to myself, "I want to
work in a job that helps people like me."
345
:I said this to myself, and stumbled across
a psychology degree that I could go do.
346
:I magically got into university, started
that psych degree, got to the second year
347
:when they started bringing in subjects
around mathematics and statistics,
348
:and that was just not my strong point.
349
:I like words and I like
hearing people's stories.
350
:I don't like sitting there crunching
numbers, and I'm like, "Why is this
351
:even part of a psychology degree?", so I
dropped out, and I went on this 15 year
352
:career in a public service, but as a
mature age student, when I went back and
353
:did social work, that came about because I
was done doing that public service career.
354
:It wasn't lighting me up.
355
:I wanted more.
356
:I now knew what different types of
career pathways looked like, because
357
:it was something that we talked
about, and so I jumped into my local
358
:university and spoke to a careers
counselor, which I've never done before.
359
:I thought, I'll talk to someone and say,
"This is kind of what I want to do.", and
360
:they pitched social work to me, because I
was actually leaning towards counselling,
361
:but I said social work, and we talked
about that, and what jumped out to me,
362
:and it's kind of like what we're talking
about before is, social work enabled
363
:me to be creative, and it wasn't going
to put me in a box where I had to be a
364
:counsellor, or I had to be a psychologist,
and just do the same thing day in day out.
365
:If I got bored of mental health in
social work, I could just go and do child
366
:protection, or I can go and do policy, or
advocacy, or work in homelessness shelter.
367
:I can do a whole range of things which
wouldn't happen if I was a counselor
368
:or a psychologist, and so that really
drew me, and I'm like, "You know what?
369
:I like that.", and then as I was
going through my social work degree,
370
:I've got this vision of becoming
an accredited mental health social
371
:worker here, which is the top level
of social worker here in Australia.
372
:I also didn't want to be in a therapy
clinic doing six sessions a day, day
373
:after day, day after day, because that
would just bore the hell out of me.
374
:Yes.
375
:I'd like the conversations, but I'd
been in a public service career where
376
:I had to sit in a cubicle and do that
type of monotonous, conveyor belt
377
:style work, and so as I was completing-
378
:Joshua: Guilty as charged.
379
:Simon: Yeah.
380
:Joshua: I still do that as I start my
business, so I have to admit that, in the
381
:United States public service, I get it.
382
:I've sat in those cubicles.
383
:I understand.
384
:Simon: I didn't want that anymore.
385
:I wanted to start living life by
design, and so I purposely, when I
386
:set up Mindful Men as a business,
I gave away with the clinic space.
387
:In fact, I only go to a clinic once
every fortnight for a couple clients,
388
:but the rest of my time, I designed
it so that it's out and about in
389
:community, and so instead of doing
six sessions a day in a clinic, I
390
:might be on a Zoom call one moment.
391
:The next moment, I might be
walking on a beach with a guy.
392
:The next moment, I might be going for a
drive with a guy, or getting a coffee, or
393
:there's one guy that used to love Macca's
drive through, so we'd go through and
394
:get McDonald's, and we would do it in
therapy in this way that is A, accessible
395
:for guys; makes therapy not look like
therapy, or feel like therapy, because it
396
:just looks like two guys catching up for
an hour in their week, having a bit of a
397
:laugh, having a bit of a cry, and then,
leaving it on a good note with some tools,
398
:strategies, tips, whatever, but again,
it brings in that creativity, and I think
399
:creativity is really important for me,
and it was really important to come out
400
:of burnout, because when you burn out,
all the joy in life disappears, and what
401
:I was yearning for was creativity, to
get out of that cubicle, to be creative,
402
:and to do things differently, and that's
what I've taken from social work and
403
:then put that into my career now as a
social worker slash men's therapist.
404
:Joshua: That is so interesting to me
that I wish that we had more people
405
:here in the United States embrace some
of those same practices that you're
406
:doing, because I feel that we get into
the stodgy, traditional, "Oh, well,
407
:you come meet my office, lay down
on my couch and tell me your woes.
408
:You'll feel so much better afterwards.",
but it's a lot more than just listening
409
:to that, which I'm not displacing the
fact that that's really important, but
410
:I think that we need to do a lot more.
411
:We need to be involved with that to
help them get to an environment that
412
:makes them feel a lot more comfortable,
so I love what you're doing to help
413
:that facilitation of that process.
414
:Simon, I really want to touch on this
quick because you and I were talking about
415
:this before the show, and I know that
for many of my listeners, they have an
416
:interest in this topic because, especially
in the United States, is a big deal.
417
:It's about fathers and the mental
health aspect of it, and I'm just
418
:curious, maybe you can take it in
the context of one of your clients,
419
:which by all means, I would not ask
you to name that person whatsoever.
420
:I believe in confidentiality.
421
:I do that in my own business too, so I
wonder if there is somebody, though, maybe
422
:a group of people that you could talk
about that you've helped with overcoming
423
:issues that might relate to being a
father, or fatherhood for that matter,
424
:because it can also be just as lonely,
because you think, "Well, I got the kids.
425
:I got the wife; the perfect life!", but
that's not always the case, so I wonder
426
:if you could talk a little bit about that.
427
:Simon: Yeah, well, take a big
chunk from me because I'm a dad,
428
:so I have a dad of a four year
old and an almost seven year old.
429
:He's about to turn seven very soon,
but a lot of mine, again, as a lived
430
:experience therapist, I draw from
my own life and stuff like that, and
431
:thinking about my youth, yes, I lived
with dad, and dad's still around and
432
:all that type of stuff, but he was
never the one to sit down and share
433
:stuff about, talk about anything other
than what we were doing on the sports
434
:field, or what we're doing at school.
435
:It was very much superficial,
and when I became a dad, I
436
:didn't want to be like that.
437
:I wanted to be more involved in my
kids lives, to be the one that they
438
:go to, but often what happens, and
the same happens with the guys that I
439
:work with in my clinic, is something
happens when they become a dad, and
440
:they kind of revert back to the version
of parenting that they learned from
441
:their father, and it's often the one
that something that they don't like.
442
:For example, one these days is smacking.
443
:Did they smack their child?
444
:They were smacked when they were a
kid, so when their child plays up or
445
:misbehaves, they automatically innately
go to smacking, and so I'm talking to
446
:a guys about that, and I had that as
well when my son was born and he was a
447
:bit older, and I reverted back to that
eighties version of parenting, cause
448
:I used to get belted, and pretty hard.
449
:Now, I didn't belt my son, but I
smacked him on the top of his hand
450
:once, and I hated myself for it.
451
:In fact, I still hate- this was years ago,
and I still think about that and go, "No.
452
:That's just not what we do in the 2020s."
453
:That should be left in the 80s.
454
:It shouldn't even maybe exist
in the 80s, so things like that.
455
:Thinking about what we did, but
not being hard on ourselves as
456
:parents and going, "You know what?
457
:We're just doing the best with the
knowledge that we have.", and a lot
458
:of that knowledge just comes from
our own childhood, and then fast
459
:forward to, we talked about alcohol
and stuff like that, so my kids
460
:were the driver for me to get sober.
461
:Alcohol became a part of my life in my
teens, initially to have fun and all
462
:that type of stuff, but then it became
a self medication coping mechanism
463
:for mental health, and over the last,
say, six, twelve months, I've started
464
:to think to myself, "You know what?
465
:I'm not really enjoying alcohol
anymore, but I'm doing it to manage
466
:life, to cope with stress, and I also
felt, because I'm a therapist, very
467
:guilty, because I'd have guys come
into my clinic with alcohol issues.
468
:Dads that come in and say, "I drink
too much because I'm stressed.",
469
:and I would say all the therapy
things, so, "You know what?
470
:You maybe need to cut out alcohol.",
but I wasn't doing the same, and
471
:so I felt like a fraud, almost,
that I would say these things.
472
:I know that alcohol is a depressant,
for example, but they'll be in a clinic
473
:saying one thing, but doing the other,
but how my kids helped me with that
474
:is that they actually started going,
"Daddy, it's the weekend, would you
475
:like a beer?", and I'm not the dad that
trained my kids to go get the beer.
476
:I'm like, "Oh yeah.
477
:I'll go grab a beer and stuff like that.",
or we'd having a lots of conversations in
478
:the car, so my wife 's not a big drinker,
right, and when I drank, it was pretty
479
:much going there and you're going to have
a good time, and if I wasn't driving the
480
:car though, because I'm usually the guy
that drives the car in the family, they'd
481
:be like, "Why is Daddy not driving?
482
:Mummy, why are you driving?",
and so we'd have to have a chat
483
:about alcohol, and it's like, "Oh.
484
:You don't drink and drive.", and all this
type of stuff, which is all a very normal
485
:conversation to have, but I'm just like,
"Man, I hate having these conversations
486
:with my little kids in the car.
487
:It's not a conversation I want to
have.", and so these types of things
488
:were playing in my mind, and it got to
a point on my 40th birthday when people
489
:are giving me gifts, and I think, "Oh.
490
:This is my 40th, like, this is a
big birthday for me every decade.",
491
:and the majority of gifts I got
were alcohol, and I said to my
492
:wife, I said," Why is this the case?
493
:It's my 40th birthday."
494
:She goes, "Simon, that's because that's
the identity that people know you.
495
:They know you like a drink.", and so all
these things, and particularly my kids,
496
:and being that father figure, this all
just didn't sit well with me, so these
497
:were catalysts for me to give away the
booze, and so, bringing that again into
498
:my therapy clinic, and the work that I
do as a lived experience therapist, if
499
:they say, "Simon, I'm struggling with
alcohol.", or addiction, or something
500
:like that, I say, "You know what?
501
:I kind of get it.
502
:I've been there.", and what this enables,
and particularly working with guys who
503
:haven't been in therapy, having someone
who kind of has walked in similar shoes on
504
:a similar journey, not the same, because
it's always different, it helps just
505
:them to relax and go, "You know what?
506
:I can say whatever about alcohol
now and know that you're not going
507
:to judge me.", and it's so true.
508
:That's what I love about being
a lived experience therapist.
509
:Now, you talked about regulation in the U.
510
:S.
511
:and all that type of stuff, and
a lot of therapists, even here in
512
:Australia, and in America, I do
interview a lot from all over the world.
513
:There's this fear in therapists
to really be their authentic
514
:selves, and to say, "Yeah.
515
:I'm a lived experience therapist.
516
:I've experienced depression, or suicidal
ideation, or alcohol misuse.",, or
517
:whatever it is, because we're taught
in the education system that self
518
:disclosure is wrong, and it's not
about you, and I agree to some extent.
519
:Yes, a client is paying for our time
to help them with their issue, but
520
:if you can create a much stronger
therapeutic rapport or therapeutic
521
:relationship with your client by just
giving them a snippet and say, "Hey.
522
:You're feeling depressed.
523
:I feel it's similar, and let's talk
about that and some strategies, and
524
:turn it around with a tip or a tool
or a strategy that is useful for them.
525
:There's a lot of power in that,
and so taking the fatherhood
526
:stuff, the drinking stuff, the
smacking stuff, losing your anger.
527
:Anger is a big thing for guys and dads.
528
:They don't want to be angry, but they're
so wound up, or they've been taught for
529
:so long, like we talked about earlier,
like to suck it up and to don't talk
530
:about things that are just eventually
all becomes like volcanoes and they
531
:get angry, and get violent, or they
scream, or whatever, and so just drawing
532
:on this and going, "You know what?
533
:I'm a guy.
534
:I get it.
535
:I know what that's like.
536
:Let's talk about that and share
stories.", because I get as much from
537
:them sharing stories as they do from
me sharing my story, and so we share.
538
:It's a sharing thing, and
it's not just about me being
539
:on a pedestal as a therapist.
540
:It's about me sitting with my client,
at their same level, talking the
541
:same language, and working through
it as a team, as opposed to me,
542
:just being the almighty person of
wisdom and knowledge, which I'm not.
543
:I've got a degree, yeah, but I don't
know everything about everything.
544
:I'd know a little bit about something,
and so together, we can come up
545
:with the best solution and it's
all about drawing from that lived
546
:experience, whether it's fatherhood,
masculinity, whether it's public
547
:servant life, whether it's student life.
548
:I've got all these different
versions of me that I can draw
549
:from and really support guys in a
way that means something to them.
550
:Joshua: I think even in my business
of coaching, and helping others to see
551
:a different perspective, especially
working through a challenging idea or
552
:presupposition about themselves, first
off, I always give the work of diving
553
:into, "Well, what's the root cause of
that?", to the therapist, because I'm
554
:not a counselor by any means, but if
someone's really working through and
555
:they're really serious about challenging
themselves to get to that destination that
556
:they really need to get to, I think it's
really important to do that, so Simon,
557
:we're pretty much at the end of time here.
558
:I want to give you the
last few minutes though.
559
:I would love for you to give our audience
some information about Mindful Men, where
560
:they can reach out if they're interested
in learning more about your company,
561
:and also the services it provides.
562
:I wonder if you could just give us
maybe like a 30 second overview of
563
:that, and also a little bit about how
they can reach out to you, but I'm
564
:going to give you the last few minutes.
565
:Simon: Yeah, absolutely.
566
:Mindful Men is a therapy
business in Australia, so I only
567
:do therapy work in Australia.
568
:I am looking at coaching in the future
to maybe go more globally, so watch
569
:this space, but also, if you come to the
website, so it's www.mindful-men.com.au;
570
:that also links to my social media.
571
:I'm very active on social media, including
the Mindful Men podcast, so we just
572
:have these exact same conversations
on that podcast, but also got a free
573
:Facebook community group for men to
come in and talk about mindfulness and
574
:connect with other people from around
the world, and just essentially feel
575
:less lonely in the world, and connect and
be mindful about life and share stories
576
:and inspire each other, basically, so
as an extension from this conversation
577
:into that Facebook group, if people want
to come in and connect there, but other
578
:than that, head over to the website.
579
:Learn a bit more about me.
580
:Connect on social media.
581
:I'm always happy to connect and
talk and share whatever I can
582
:to lighten someone else's day.
583
:Joshua: You lighten up my day, because
you're not only on the other side of
584
:what you've been through, but you're
doing some awesome work helping others,
585
:and for somebody like you, I realize
now that there's a lot of people just
586
:like me that have been through this,
and it's great to have great company.
587
:As a matter of fact, I wrote down the
group because I will definitely join
588
:myself because I would love to have that
interaction of people supporting each
589
:other, so, with all that said, I'm going
to put everything that people can reach
590
:out to you in the episode notes, so if you
want to check that out, check out Simon's
591
:website, that'd be a great opportunity
to support, but I have to tell you.
592
:For somebody that has been through OCD,
anxiety, depression, alcoholism, all
593
:those things, and yet you are running,
I think, a very important initiative
594
:for not only your country, but for
the world to help continue empower and
595
:keep this conversation going, because
I think we need to be heard as opposed
596
:to crying in the corner, because
it is okay to cry, by the way, too.
597
:I've cried plenty of times on this
show even Simon, so keep on crying
598
:for me because I don't think that
we need to suppress it anymore.
599
:We need to keep talking about it,
so for all those reasons, thanks for
600
:being on Speaking From The Heart.
601
:Thanks for sharing your heart about
these experiences and God bless you, man.
602
:Keep doing what you're doing, and keep
helping others see their true light.
603
:Simon: Aw, Josh, thank you.
604
:I've really enjoyed this chat, and
thank you for all the work you're doing.
605
:You're doing an amazing job and keep
these conversations going, because
606
:they're so important for the world today.
607
:Joshua: Again, I want to thank
Simon so much for spending some time
608
:with me to conduct this interview,
especially being halfway across
609
:the world to be able to do this.
610
:I love the perspectives every single time
that we get on this show, as it relates
611
:to not only our international guests,
but how we can be able to diagnose a
612
:variety of different situations that
are happening, both in our countries,
613
:especially since they are so intertwined.
614
:They're all interrelated, and that's
what's really the most important thing
615
:about this conversation, is that we
have to overcome different perceptions
616
:of what we might think is a problem.
617
:We have to be able to learn and understand
how we can use this information that we
618
:even gleaned from today's show to put it
into practice, so let's dive right into
619
:it, because we all have these different
ideas of what it means to be successful.
620
:Success is often dictated to not only
the genders that we have in this world,
621
:regardless of whether you identify as
a male, female, or something else, but
622
:even if we push that all aside for a
second, we have to think about the fact
623
:that these subjects that we are dealing
with, these are actual human beings.
624
:They have actual issues, so how do we get
to having a conversation about solving
625
:these issues, instead of avoiding them?
626
:I think Simon is taking some
of those first steps into
627
:moving into that direction.
628
:We have to be able to start talking
about these subjects so that we
629
:are able to learn a lot more about
what's happening, but also start
630
:addressing the bigger picture, but the
question always becomes, should we?
631
:Well, let's look at it this way.
632
:Do you feel that you always have to
protect others and what they have to say?
633
:Do you have to share in safety, or can
you share in pain, knowing that when you
634
:are sharing it out because of pain, it
starts to turn into a purpose, essentially
635
:what Simon even says in his intro.
636
:We have to learn to understand that with
people sharing these sort of aspects
637
:of pain, and frustration, and guilt,
and shame, we can get value from it.
638
:Who do you get that value from is a whole
other question in itself, because the
639
:people that might be giving you that,
whether they are actually authentic in
640
:nature, is really a big conversation
piece in itself, but I think everybody
641
:has a story, and that story needs to be
shared, especially if that story has a
642
:lot of self care to go along with it.
643
:Is everything perfect on
the inside, the outside?
644
:What are you trying to do, in order
to help yourself understand what
645
:that knowledge is that you need to
create, and I think that Simon's story
646
:really exemplifies the fact that we
can't always strive for perfection.
647
:We have to learn, even as men for that
matter, that we need to be able to express
648
:what is on our hearts, on our minds.
649
:We need to be able to be in a context
where it's okay to do that, and I love
650
:the fact that we have even groups for
that matter that Simon's even started
651
:that is helping to address this cause.
652
:Even in my own backyard here in South
Central Pennsylvania in the United States,
653
:there are a variety of different men
groups that are trying to help address
654
:some of these issues that have been
plagued for so long about the importance
655
:of not only listening to yourself, but
listening to others, in a men context.
656
:It doesn't mean that you're
forming a cult, or you are
657
:weak, or you should be shameful.
658
:Those are old, outdated ideas that we
need to start understanding that even
659
:if we think about these ideas today as
being old and outdated, we need to keep
660
:shifting that conversation forward.
661
:We need to keep pushing ourselves
in a direction that will allow us
662
:to understand that we need to start
talking, instead of burning out,
663
:because burnout seems to be what causes
this engagement in the first place.
664
:Huh?
665
:What?
666
:What do you mean by that?
667
:Burnout creates engagement?
668
:That's hogwash.
669
:Why would you ever say that, Josh, on
a show in which you talk about self
670
:development, creating relationships,
confidence, and determination?
671
:Why would you say that you need
to burn out so that you would
672
:have then that engagement?
673
:I know I must be a hypocrite
today, but let's face it.
674
:If I didn't burn out, I wouldn't be behind
a microphone right now talking to you,
675
:my listeners, for so long now after over
119 episodes when this episode airs.
676
:Burnout can make such a big difference
in creating that engagement.
677
:Sometimes, some people have to get to
the end of their rope before they finally
678
:reach out, and they realize their true
potential, just like Simon's story today
679
:really exemplifies, not only because of
the things that he's been through, but
680
:because he's realized that the truth
comes from not only how we can help
681
:others, but how we can help ourselves.
682
:I think the question really becomes:
When is the time to light up and move on?
683
:When do we actually flip the switch to
say that we had enough, that we don't need
684
:to live in this life of misery and guilt
and shame, and be able to push forward?
685
:How can we be that guy, or even that
gal for that matter, that is able
686
:to grow up, to be able to understand
that we might need to lean on
687
:different people, different places,
different things that are healthy and
688
:positive, not unhealthy and negative?
689
:Sustaining the energy to build all
these areas of the future is really
690
:the key, and I've talked about on
a variety of other shows about the
691
:importance of having your tribe.
692
:Being able to learn and understand that
there's different people that we need to
693
:interact with, but the kinds of people
that interact with you are also the key
694
:too, and as I've even put to some of my
clients, you have a choice as to who you
695
:associate with, and who you do not, and
I know that might be so easy to say, but
696
:in practice, it's not so easy to say.
697
:It does put you in a place of guilt;
being alone, for that matter, and
698
:I know loneliness in itself is an
epidemic that needs to be challenged
699
:as well, but, of course, that is
lumped in with all the other things
700
:that are happening: the mental health
crisis, alcoholism, addiction to porn.
701
:No matter what kind of subject matter
that you want to talk about, the things
702
:that we have as energy sustain itself
from the things that not only we digest
703
:in society, but even as we've talked
about on an interview episode, it's
704
:about the food that we consume, but
let's really get to the heart of this.
705
:It's really about being fathers.
706
:Fathers in which we're able to
help our children, but it doesn't
707
:necessarily always have to be children.
708
:We can be fathers of other men.
709
:People in which they're looking for
that guidance on a variety of different
710
:issues, so that we can stay involved,
not only with the challenges of today,
711
:but to continue to press forward with
the challenges that will happen in
712
:the future, and how we address those
issues, and how we work on our identity,
713
:especially with fathers in mind, plays
such a pivotal role, and which is why I
714
:think society needs to get back on track
with having that engagement at all levels.
715
:Now I'm a coach, and I'm here to help
people realize their true potential,
716
:whether they find their voice through
public speaking, whether they find goals
717
:in which they align themselves with in
life, or they're just trying to find a
718
:career, or a business, that will help
them create the best potential that they
719
:will ever have, but in a way, whether
you're a father, you're a mother, you're
720
:a grandmother, you're a grandfather,
regardless of what your role is in
721
:society, even if you're just a single
white male; that's right, a single white
722
:male like myself, you have a place on
this earth, because we are all equal,
723
:no matter which way you look at it.
724
:I think that we often get confused by
the fact that when people go through so
725
:many different trials and tribulations
in life, and have had so many hardships,
726
:whether they have been in jail, or
they have been through something else.
727
:You have to understand that the
negativity that is often stigmatized
728
:because of being through some of
these situations, need to stop.
729
:It's hurting people.
730
:It's creating situations in which
we have to have groups like Simon's,
731
:even in Australia for that matter, to
be able to help others see that they
732
:are worth something because they've
lost what that value is along the way.
733
:You have to learn the fact that if we're
going to be able to protect others, if
734
:we're going to overcome the perceptions
that we have in society, if we're going
735
:to be able to be perfect, whether there
is any perfection in this world to begin
736
:with, which I would argue there isn't, we
have to learn that we have to stop letting
737
:it wait until the very last minute.
738
:We need to stop burning out.
739
:I should ask you the question
again that I asked earlier.
740
:When's the last time that you lit yourself
on fire, passion wise, not literally,
741
:because I certainly don't want you to burn
yourself, but when's the last time that
742
:you lit yourself up, with the passions
and the joys, so that you can help others
743
:see their true potential, but also see
yourself with that true potential as well?
744
:Can you be that guy?
745
:Can you be that gal for somebody
else that might be struggling
746
:with that energy level?
747
:Can you associate with different people
that might be helping you to get to
748
:where you need to go, but I think more
importantly, above all else, when's
749
:the last time that you visited someone
that was really struggling, reached out
750
:your hand, and said that, "It's okay.
751
:I'm here to help.", and you gave
them help, with no strings attached?
752
:Simon is the epiphany of something that
I think this world really needs right
753
:now from everybody, not just him, and
not just me, or not just anybody else.
754
:We need to start having a conversation
about what's really important, which
755
:is about listening which I've had many
different conversations on this show
756
:about different organizations that have
been working towards that vision, but at
757
:the same time, I want you to know that
your journey of healing, of sustainment,
758
:of seeing the true version of yourself,
doesn't have to be rooted in pain.
759
:It can be rooted in purpose.
760
:I hope that today's show gives you
hope to know that there are some good
761
:people in this world that are willing
to help you, no matter what, but at
762
:the same time, if you think that you
are struggling with something that
763
:you cannot do on your own, seek help.
764
:A long time ago, I didn't do
that, and it led me into a place
765
:that was very dark indeed, but at
the same time, I found my light.
766
:I found my purpose, and if I'm able
to do that, if I'm able to find
767
:that opportunity, just like many
of my other guests have, including
768
:Simon today, I have hope for you.
769
:Do not give up, because I know you are
the light of the world, and you're going
770
:to help so many people with that energy
that you've been building up all along,
771
:to surround yourself with community,
to take on the next step of this great
772
:adventure that we call life, and all it
means is just starting out with helping
773
:just one person, even if that's you.
774
:Thanks for listening to episode
number 119 of Speaking From The
775
:Heart, and I look forward to
hearing from your heart very soon.
776
:Outro: Thanks for listening.
777
:For more information about our podcast
and future shows, search for Speaking From
778
:The Heart to subscribe and be notified
wherever you listen to your podcasts.
779
:Visit us at www.yourspeakingvoice.biz
for more information about potential
780
:services that can help you create
the best version of yourself.
781
:See you next time.
