Episode #136 - Overcoming The Bullies & Being A Leader: An Interview With Dr. Jim Salvucci

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Welcome to the podcast where relationships, confidence, and

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determination all converge into

an amazing, heartfelt experience.

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This is Speaking From The Heart.

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Joshua: Welcome back to episode

number 136 of Speaking from the Heart.

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Today we have Dr.

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Jim Salvucci as our guest, and Dr.

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Salvucci was an English professor and

faculty leader when he was asked to become

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the Dean of the School of Humanities

and Social Sciences at his university.

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There was one hitch, though.

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The School of Humanities

and Social Sciences did not

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exist, so he had to found it.

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He soon realized that his lifelong

background as a leader in many settings

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did not prepare him adequately for

the challenge of founding a school.

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Jim is an expert in writing and

communication, and a passionate teacher.

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His varied experience and extensive

learning have made him a seasoned

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public speaker, engaging audiences

on four continents in a variety

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of formats, including podcasts,

which his is called On Leading With

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Greatness, summits and also workshops.

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Jim writes a weekly newsletter

and is also writing a book.

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Becoming an entrepreneur out to lead a

movement to guide young managers to become

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the next generation of great leaders.

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Jim's knowledge of, and commitment to,

leadership and teaching is unsurpassed.

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I really love Jim's conversation with me

today, because not only does he bring a

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perspective from an academic sense, which

is always helpful especially with framing

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what some of the real life application

of leadership and communication is all

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about, but it also allows us to really

dig deep into not only the principles

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that are involved with it, but also

understanding why it's so important

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for the wrestling of different concepts

such as incompetence, imposter syndrome,

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and even being able to motivate, and

have the ability to do certain things,

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can create that position of strength,

especially as we work through a variety

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of different angles in our lives.

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Regardless of your education level, or

even who you are, I think you're going

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to get a lot out of our interview today

with Jim and how it meant so much to

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not only share what these perspectives

are, these puzzle pieces if you will,

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but it also allows us to understand

why it's so important to become not

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only bold when the challenge presents

itself, but also willing to understand

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that there's more ways than one to

solve a problem, even if it takes having

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the ability to motivate others to lead

the charge in a whole new generation,

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in a whole new sense of the meaning

of being able to lead from the front.

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But with that, let's go to the episode.

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Alright, we're here with Jim Salvucci.

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Jim, thanks for sharing

your heart with us today.

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Jim: Yeah, Joshua, it's great to be here.

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Happy to share my heart, maybe

a little chunk of my brain.

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Joshua: Oh.

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I think you got a lot on the brain and

in the heart from what I've read about

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you and what my audience now knows about

you after hearing a little bit about

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your background, Jim, so thanks so much

for taking time out of your schedule

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to do this with me, and I really want

to start with this question because as

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somebody that has also been well educated,

I don't have a doctorate degree like

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yourself, but, nevertheless, I'm kind of

curious what got you started into some

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of the leadership that you have done.

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I noticed that you were a faculty

member of a well known college, and I'm

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wondering if you could tell a little

bit about your backstory as it relates

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to that, because I feel like that's the

catalyst to a lot of what our conversation

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that we'll have today is about.

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Jim: I've been involved in leadership

on some level since I was a little kid.

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I was in Boy Scouts.

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I was like 12 years old, and they

advanced me to like the top leadership

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position in the troop for some reason

or other, and way before I held the

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rank that was supposed to have and

I've just always been thrust into

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leadership positions my whole life.

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At 18, I was a boss, I had

employees, which was fine

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and I was pretty good at it.

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I wasn't, wasn't a bad leader,

wasn't a bad boss either.

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When I went into higher ed, became

a faculty member, I was an English

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professor, I became a faculty leader,

so I was working at a small university

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outside of Baltimore that you've never

heard of, and I was a faculty leader.

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I was asked to lead the

reaccreditation; every 10 years

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you have to be reaccredited.

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That was a big deal, and then

they asked me to become the dean

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of the School of Humanities and

Social Sciences, which is great.

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I mean, that was excellent,

except for one thing.

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There was no School of Humanities

and Social Sciences, so I had to

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found it, so I created the School of

Humanities and Social Sciences, and

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what I discovered was putting a school

together is actually quite easy.

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This goes with that; that goes with this.

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I had like 6 or 7 departments,

I think 15 disciplines.

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That was easy.

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What was hard was figuring out how to get

it up and running and keeping it running,

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right, so how do you make this work?

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I thought, "Okay, well I'll look

around at what resources I have."

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I was a pretty good,

what I call, gut leader.

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Right?

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I had good intuition.

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I had good experience, but I never

really thought about leadership in any

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rigorous way, but the stakes were way

higher now, so I looked at my bosses.

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They were bosses, and I make a strict

distinction between bosses and leaders.

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They weren't particularly good, and it got

no mentorship or guidance or training of

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any kind, and then I looked at my peers.

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They were flailing around wildly,

totally lost, and I thought, "Well.

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This is probably not good.", but

I did imitate them for a while.

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You watch people and you think, "Oh.

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Maybe they're doing it right.",

and you try other things, and I

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started realizing I was slipping

into perfectionism, workaholism.

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God forbid, micromanagement.

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This is not me, so I started thinking

about, "Well, what can I do here?

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I've got to break away from this.", and

a few things happened that helped me

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break away, just some revelations, and

I thought, "Well, I'm on my own here.

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I got to figure this out.", so

I started studying leadership.

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I started thinking about

leadership in a rigorous way.

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I started going to workshops.

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I started meeting people.

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I didn't really have any

help on my own campus.

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I was put through leadership training

there that was laughable at best.

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Insulting really is the word, and so I

really just had to figure out what was

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going on, and how could I be the best

leader, so I started treating leadership

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like a second discipline of study.

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My first discipline was English.

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My second discipline was leadership.

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I tried what I was learning.

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I failed a lot.

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I also learned that you can learn

a great deal from other people's

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mistakes, so when my bosses screwed

up or my peers, I learned from that.

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When I watched them hurt people,

I learned how not to do that.

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Eventually, I left higher ed.

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I left that school and I went to a

couple other schools as a vice president,

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and then left higher ed and thought,

"Well, what do I want to do?", and

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what I really wanted to do was what I

used to love doing as an administrator.

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I used to love working with young

people, mentoring them, guiding

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them and helping them become great

leaders, so that's what I do.

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Joshua: That is really important.

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I have had guests on the show previously

too, Jim, about talking about what is

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really important when it comes to not

only leading, but also communicating.

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It's one of the things that I feel is so

important that sometimes is missed out

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when it comes to important aspects of

not only college education, which, yeah,

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we get fed a lot of philosophy, a lot of

different types of theories, but putting

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into practice is a whole other discussion

in itself, so I am curious and building

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off of that comment about young leaders.

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How do you do that with your work?

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How do you help others that are

budding and they're trying to

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figure out how to actually lead?

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What are some of the things that

you actually dive into with them?

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Jim: Yeah.

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I mean I'm a coach, so I

work individually with them.

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I'm also looking into

starting group coaching.

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I'm a speaker, so I do it from a stage.

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I do it in podcasts, and I write.

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I have a weekly newsletter and

podcasts that I put out on leadership,

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so in all these places, I really

try to get at people's values.

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The best leaders are

values driven leaders.

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The number one leadership

principle is human decency.

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Be a decent human.

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If you start there, you got

a pretty good foundation.

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There's a lot of other principles that

come in and I tailor it to each person.

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When I talk generally from a stage or in

a podcast, I talk a lot about things like

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what I call the four C's of leadership.

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You mentioned communication.

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That's one of them.

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The other three are character,

compromise, and collaboration.

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I'm not real big on leadership.

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There's a lot of wisdom out there; some

great stuff, great books, great speakers.

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You can learn a lot from them, but I find

that a lot of them kind of are pitching

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their ideas and there's more individual

ways of getting at it, and that's why

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I reduce things to very small numbers.

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The four C's of leadership, not

the 25 C's of leadership, partially

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because the human brain can only

handle four things at a time.

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Joshua: Yeah.

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Jim: At maximum.

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Joshua: Yeah.

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Jim: And so it's just easier

to comprehend, but also

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because that's all you need.

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If you have those four things,

you're a really good leader.

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Right?

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If you have character meaning values,

if you can communicate, and I can go

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on and on about communication, but

if you can communicate a valuable

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message, where's that value come from?

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From your character, right, and

they all build on each other.

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If you can communicate, then

you can compromise, right?

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Meeting someone part way, and then if

you can compromise, you can collaborate,

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which is the highest level, really

which means more than meeting people

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halfway, but really participating;

creating a collective, so, these

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are things I talk about quite a bit.

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Joshua: I have to say, what you said

about what our messaging is, what

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you communicate, I often tell people;

you said four, I usually say three.

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We're in the ballpark, close enough,

because I think that just small chunks

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at a time make a big difference with

saying that, but you said something

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that's really important too, is that

message that's inside of us, if we have

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good character, good values, that is

something that we can easily draw upon,

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and that would be the effective message,

and I had a guest that said, it's the

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story that we have inside of ourselves.

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Now, they were talking about writing

and being a book author, but it's

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the same principle with speaking.

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You have an idea inside of you.

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You're able to flush that out.

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I really love that.

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You're validating a lot of the good things

that I think both you and I work on and

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also the other people that are definitely

striving to be that, but I noticed

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something that maybe might be some of the

information that catalysts a lot of what

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we're talking about, and you're talking

about your experiences with being able to

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build the school and helping to put the

puzzle pieces together, but I'm wondering,

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because this is something that I notice

in your bio that you have been through

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bullying in the workplace, I'm imagining?

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I noticed that you have some sort of

expertise with that, and truthfully,

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that really gets to my core because

I have been a state civil servant.

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One of the things I probably didn't tell

you about myself, but my listeners know,

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that I've been doing this a long time, but

I found a lot of different personalities

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in state government, and sometimes they

can be a bunch of bullies themselves

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in the workplace, so I'm wondering if

there's some sort of indirect connection

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between those two topics, and what would

you say to somebody that is going through

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something like bullying in the workplace

to help them be able to overcome?

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Jim: Yeah, it depends on who's

doing the bullying, right?

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I mean, there's techniques

for dealing with pure bullies.

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When the bully's your boss,

you're pretty much done.

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I mean, they have all the power.

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A lot of people just knuckle under to a

bully boss, and that's the worst, because

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then they become much like the bully boss.

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They empower the bully boss.

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If you fight back, though, you're

caught, and I've been there.

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It's like encountering

a cop on the street.

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They have all the power, or

a teacher in the classroom.

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A teacher is a bully.

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You're a student.

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What are you going to do?

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They got all the power,

so it's imperative.

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If you're a boss, if you're a boss, if

you have that position, you're a manager,

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executive, whatever your title is.

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If you oversee people and you

bully them, you are incompetent.

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Find me the part of your job description

that justifies that behavior.

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Tell me what it is.

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You are undermining your people.

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You're making them less productive.

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You're hurting them, and they're probably

bringing stuff home, right, but how

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is this going to help productivity?

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Oh, yeah, you might get them to jump when

you walk in the room, but I can guarantee

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you they're not jumping when you're not

there, so you are, in fact, incompetent.

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Joshua: That is a pretty strong statement,

but I agree with you, because they are.

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They're lacking in that leadership;

those communication skills, all of

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those things, and it makes me wonder

sometimes too, where does that come from?

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Where is that motivation to just bully?

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Do you have any thoughts on that?

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Jim: Yeah.

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There's myriad.

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One of the reasons I say they're

incompetent, is because the job

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of every manager is to make their

employees better at their job.

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Joshua: Yeah.

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Jim: If you're literally

doing the opposite of that,

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you're not very good, right?

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You suck, but where does that come from?

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Sometimes it's because they've been

bullied, and they knuckled under at

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one time and now they're striking back.

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It literally is just a building of

really in depth imposter syndrome.

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Sometimes they just feel overwhelmed.

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They don't know what they're doing,

but I've seen people turn from decent

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people to bullies when they became

bosses, maybe that's the only model

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they saw, maybe they were bullied,

and a lot of people, when they become

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managers, they just replicate what they've

seen, and that's what I refused to do.

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I had horrible bosses.

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I'll be damned if I act like

that, and so I tried to do the

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opposite, or not the opposite.

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It's not always just the opposite of what

they do, but I tried to be a different

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type of person, and a different type of

boss, and I wasn't always successful,

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and there may even be times I actually

slipped into some bullying, especially

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early on when I was a little green.

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I didn't know what I was doing, right,

but I think, to answer your question

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succinctly, I think people become bullies

because bullies beget bullies, right?

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They were bullied.

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They get bullied.

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They bully people.

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Those people become bullies,

just like leaders beget leaders.

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Joshua: I have people that listen to

my podcast that also influence leaders

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and also other individuals, whether

that's in a professional realm, whether

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that's in a volunteer realm, some of

them might be young, so fitting right

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into the mold of what you specialize in.

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What would you say, or a couple of things

that you would recommend, if somebody

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did get that feedback that, "You're a

bully, and you should stop doing this

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to me, and to my other friends that are

working with me, because you're making

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me feel like I'm inadequate.", all

these disgusting feelings, essentially.

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Is there anything that they

can do to diagnose, or even

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treat the illness, of bullying?

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Jim: You're talking about the

individual is a bully and they're

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being told they're a bully?

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Joshua: Correct.

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Jim: Yes.

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Stop.

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I mean-

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Joshua: Not very simple

though, Jim, just to stop.

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Jim: I think that idea of

incompetence is key, right?

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Your job is to make other

people better at their jobs.

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That is your whole job.

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That is all of it, really.

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Your ego has to go.

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I say, take your ego, stuff it in

a sack and throw it in the river.

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You got to work on this.

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You got a lot of work to

do if you're bullying.

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You've got a lot of work to do on

yourself, and it starts with the self.

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You have a lot of introspection.

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You've got to understand how your

actions are affecting people.

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You've got to understand, would

you like this done to you?

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Your employee messed up

and you act like a beast.

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Is that proper?

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What I tell people is, there's a special

place in hell for bosses who yell.

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If you're a yeller, I don't

know, stop, just stop.

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I'll tell you Joshua, though, I

don't have a really great answer for

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this, because I've never had this.

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I've never had the opportunity

to say to someone, who is open

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to hearing it, "You're a bully."

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I've never had that opportunity,

because bullies don't seek help.

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Joshua: About a decade ago, and I don't

know if this person will ever fall on this

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recording, so if they do, well, they're

going to find out the hard way, but yes

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sir, I did approach you, and I told you

straight to your face that you were a

302

: 00:16:53

bully, and you did it to others, and yeah,

I got walked out, just for the record,

303

: 00:17:00

Jim, because I stood up for myself, and

I remember that day as being the lowest

304

: 00:17:04

point in my life, but then, looking back,

I remember that being the highest point,

305

: 00:17:08

and it's all about hindsight at the end

of the day, because I didn't realize that,

306

: 00:17:14

and this was in my twenties, by the way,

so I was a young person as well, try to

307

: 00:17:18

figure this out, so it's kind of funny how

we're having this conversation and just

308

: 00:17:22

like flash these memories up for me, but-

309

: 00:17:24

Jim: Yeah.

310

: 00:17:25

Joshua: I think that if we don't get

to face that challenge, or if we do

311

: 00:17:28

have to face that challenge, how are

we going to respond if that situation

312

: 00:17:32

ever comes, and it's so hard to really

describe it, in my opinion, and I know

313

: 00:17:37

that's not what you're saying, but that's

what I'm saying is that it can be hard,

314

: 00:17:40

especially if you have so many things

going on, whether it's your financial

315

: 00:17:44

security, whether you really need

that job, whether it's just a stepping

316

: 00:17:49

stone; you just got to get through it.

317

: 00:17:50

I mean.

318

: 00:17:51

I don't know.

319

: 00:17:51

There's all kinds of different

motivations for that.

320

: 00:17:54

I don't know if you have anything

you want to say in terms of that.

321

: 00:17:56

Jim: Yeah.

322

: 00:17:57

Well, look, if you're being bullied,

there's a number of things you

323

: 00:18:00

do that probably, the best, if

it's possible, is leave if you're

324

: 00:18:04

being bullied by your boss, right?

325

: 00:18:05

Joshua: Yep.

326

: 00:18:06

Jim: Just get out.

327

: 00:18:06

You're not going to win this battle.

328

: 00:18:07

Trust me.

329

: 00:18:08

I've lost this battle, okay?

330

: 00:18:10

I've been walked out myself, but what

you need to do is you also need to

331

: 00:18:13

resolve to not ever do that yourself.

332

: 00:18:18

Right?

333

: 00:18:19

Whatever you do, if you stay there,

you leave, whatever you do, don't

334

: 00:18:23

turn into what you're seeing, right?

335

: 00:18:26

Simon Sinek has a really

great little aphorism.

336

: 00:18:29

He says, "Be the boss you wish you had."

337

: 00:18:32

My codicil to that is, "Don't be

the boss you wish you never met."

338

: 00:18:38

Joshua: You should get that patented.

339

: 00:18:42

It's so riveting because for me, like

I said, my experiences dealing with bad

340

: 00:18:46

bosses, which I've had quite a number

of them getting to this point in my life

341

: 00:18:49

and my career, I know that it can be very

tumultuous and trying to navigate through

342

: 00:18:55

that, which really, is a great segue into

something that I saw that you're certified

343

: 00:18:59

in, which is the Tiny Habits Model.

344

: 00:19:02

I wonder if you could just tell a

little bit to our audience what that

345

: 00:19:05

is, and how that fits it maybe into the

framework or either the conversation

346

: 00:19:09

that we just had, or even just in

general, with how that applies in life.

347

: 00:19:14

Jim: Yeah, so Tiny Habits, for those

who don't know, not to be confused with

348

: 00:19:18

Atomic Habits, which is a great book.

349

: 00:19:21

Joshua: Yeah.

350

: 00:19:22

Jim: But a lot of that's based on the

research that informed Tiny Habits.

351

: 00:19:25

Tiny Habits was created by BJ Fogg, who

is a Stanford researcher, and he runs

352

: 00:19:31

the behavior change clinic at Stanford.

353

: 00:19:35

Dr.

354

: 00:19:35

Fogg did a lot of research.

355

: 00:19:37

He's the researcher.

356

: 00:19:38

He's not reporting.

357

: 00:19:39

He's not compiling other people's stuff.

358

: 00:19:41

He did the work, which is

important to realize, and he had

359

: 00:19:45

a few really great breakthroughs.

360

: 00:19:48

One is that all behavior

comes down to three factors.

361

: 00:19:53

Every behavior we have, there's

three things that happen.

362

: 00:19:55

One is some sort of motivation,

whether you're willing to do it or not.

363

: 00:19:59

Another is your ability to do it.

364

: 00:20:02

How hard is it?

365

: 00:20:03

How easy is it, right, and

the third one is a prompt.

366

: 00:20:08

Something gets you to do it.

367

: 00:20:10

Someone asks you to do it.

368

: 00:20:12

You have a need.

369

: 00:20:13

You're hungry.

370

: 00:20:14

You eat.

371

: 00:20:14

That's your prompt, so everything

boils down to those three, and when

372

: 00:20:20

we try to form new habits or unravel

old habits, we tend to lean really

373

: 00:20:27

heavily on motivation, and motivation

is not reliable at all, right?

374

: 00:20:35

People say, "Well.

375

: 00:20:35

Just suck it up and do it."

376

: 00:20:36

Well, that almost never works

and certainly doesn't work over

377

: 00:20:39

time, and it's barely scalable at

all , and I always use the example.

378

: 00:20:44

In January, the gyms are filled.

379

: 00:20:46

In February, the gyms are empty.

380

: 00:20:48

Why?

381

: 00:20:49

People were motivated in January

and they lost their motivation for

382

: 00:20:53

a variety of reasons by February.

383

: 00:20:55

BJ's idea is, well, instead of

playing with motivation, why

384

: 00:20:59

don't we play with ability?

385

: 00:21:00

Make it easier to do.

386

: 00:21:02

Make it so small that it doesn't matter.

387

: 00:21:05

You want to exercise more?

388

: 00:21:07

Well, okay, do a little

bit of exercise, right?

389

: 00:21:10

You want to do a hundred push ups a day?

390

: 00:21:12

Start with, I don't know, two,

right, and all of a sudden, you

391

: 00:21:17

can do two, and it's so easy.

392

: 00:21:20

One of his other really big, observations

is that we don't form habits over time.

393

: 00:21:29

I'm sure you've heard 22 days to a new

habit; 90 days, new habits; six months.

394

: 00:21:33

Why are there all these different ones?

395

: 00:21:35

Because none of them are true.

396

: 00:21:37

If you're doing something for 90 days,

it's probably happened already, right?

397

: 00:21:40

Joshua: You were saying what was on my

mind, so thank you, because I didn't know

398

: 00:21:43

if I should say it, or you should say it.

399

: 00:21:45

Jim: So how do we form habits?

400

: 00:21:47

You can form a habit in an instant.

401

: 00:21:50

All right, and I'll give you an example.

402

: 00:21:52

If you remember way back when,

when people had flip phones, right?

403

: 00:21:56

These little gray boxes, right?

404

: 00:21:58

Joshua: Yup.

405

: 00:21:58

Jim: Not very interesting.

406

: 00:21:59

Got your first flip phone.

407

: 00:22:00

You looked at it when it rang, or you

needed it, you turned it on, you looked

408

: 00:22:04

at it might have stupid game in it that

you got bored with after five minutes.

409

: 00:22:08

Then one day you got a smartphone.

410

: 00:22:11

Totally different beast, right?

411

: 00:22:13

You look at it.

412

: 00:22:14

It's beautiful.

413

: 00:22:15

It's interesting.

414

: 00:22:15

It's got all these colors and lights

and apps and all this stuff, and

415

: 00:22:19

you play with it for a little while

and you put it in your pocket, and

416

: 00:22:22

five minutes later, what do you do?

417

: 00:22:24

Joshua: Pull it back out.

418

: 00:22:25

Jim: Pull it back out.

419

: 00:22:27

In that instant, you form the habit

of looking at your smartphone.

420

: 00:22:30

What's the difference?

421

: 00:22:32

Emotion.

422

: 00:22:33

We form a habit.

423

: 00:22:35

Every habit we have

comes from some emotion.

424

: 00:22:38

Good, bad, or indifferent.

425

: 00:22:39

Right?

426

: 00:22:40

There's not always positive emotions,

so what BJ argues is when we want to

427

: 00:22:44

form a habit, we need to induce an

emotion, and the one he suggests we

428

: 00:22:51

induce is what he calls shine, and

it comes from the feeling of success.

429

: 00:22:56

It's the emotion of success,

and how do you get that?

430

: 00:22:59

Celebrate, so you do those two pushups

and you celebrate them, and when you

431

: 00:23:05

do that, and when you really feel

that sense of success, that motion

432

: 00:23:10

of success, it becomes a habit, and

you'll find yourself doing the pushups.

433

: 00:23:16

The other piece is, and I'm

kind of doing this backwards,

434

: 00:23:18

is you need some sort of anchor.

435

: 00:23:21

Okay.

436

: 00:23:21

Some people call it habit stacking, right?

437

: 00:23:23

Something you already do.

438

: 00:23:24

Some routine, some other habit.

439

: 00:23:26

Every day at such and such

time, you brush your teeth.

440

: 00:23:29

Okay.

441

: 00:23:30

That's your anchor.

442

: 00:23:31

Immediately afterward, do your two

pushups and then celebrate, and then

443

: 00:23:36

over time, those two pushups will become

five, and ten, and on and on and on.

444

: 00:23:41

I started this way.

445

: 00:23:42

I'm using pushups as an example,

because I actually did this.

446

: 00:23:45

I now do over 120 pushups

a day, at least, okay.

447

: 00:23:48

120 pushups a day.

448

: 00:23:50

That's not all at once.

449

: 00:23:51

Not all at once, right, but I do

them in blocks of 30, and it's habit.

450

: 00:23:57

I feel like I want to do it, you know,

so it's really powerful stuff, but

451

: 00:24:02

those are really key observations, and

I think about emotions are credible.

452

: 00:24:06

It really has transformed

how we understand habits.

453

: 00:24:09

Joshua: Yeah, and habits, when we form

them- and it's funny because I have a

454

: 00:24:14

client right now that is going through

this, and they have been struggling off

455

: 00:24:18

and on with this one habit that relates

to, ironically enough, we've been talking

456

: 00:24:23

about exercise, dieting, that whole realm.

457

: 00:24:25

I've had guests on the show, Jim,

that have talked about reinventing

458

: 00:24:28

the whole fitness industry.

459

: 00:24:30

You might be interested in talking to

them because they would put the ideas

460

: 00:24:33

that you just talked about, upside

down, and there'll be like, "Really?

461

: 00:24:36

You have that working?", so it's actually

fascinating to hear you say that because

462

: 00:24:40

gyms are a perfect example, but I have

somebody that's we're working with right

463

: 00:24:44

now, kind of dealing with the same thing

and trying to build that good habit, and

464

: 00:24:49

it doesn't mean that it's a good habit.

465

: 00:24:51

It's that it's a habit that

we need to build, whether it

466

: 00:24:54

is good or bad is the emotion.

467

: 00:24:56

I love that you break it down, and

I don't think we often think about,

468

: 00:24:59

because if you actually do think about

it, though, the marketing that we

469

: 00:25:03

all see is all based on that emotion

too, so it plays right into that.

470

: 00:25:07

Jim: Yeah, sure.

471

: 00:25:08

No, that's a good insight.

472

: 00:25:09

That's absolutely true, and so

BJ has two maxims that he uses.

473

: 00:25:13

One is help people feel successful, okay?

474

: 00:25:18

Note that he is not saying be successful;

feel successful, and the other one is help

475

: 00:25:23

people do what they already want to do.

476

: 00:25:26

You're not going to actually form

the habit if you don't want to do it.

477

: 00:25:30

If you don't really want to be at

the gym, you're not going to go to

478

: 00:25:35

the gym, and if you force yourself,

you're not going to enjoy it.

479

: 00:25:38

It's never really going to become a habit.

480

: 00:25:39

It might be something you do,

but you're not enjoying it.

481

: 00:25:42

You're not getting much out of it.

482

: 00:25:43

If you want to work out, find the

ways to work out that help you.

483

: 00:25:46

How can you get exercise that

you want to, not just help you,

484

: 00:25:49

but that you want to do, right?

485

: 00:25:50

It's much easier, and

that's absolutely key.

486

: 00:25:54

Joshua: That is, and I think that's

a perfect segue, because this

487

: 00:25:58

one piece of your bio as we get

closer to the end really stuck out

488

: 00:26:01

to me, and it's about Bob Dylan.

489

: 00:26:04

Now, it literally says to me, ask

you anything about Bob Dylan, so I-

490

: 00:26:09

Jim: I'd answer.

491

: 00:26:10

Joshua: Yeah.

492

: 00:26:10

Well, first off, do you know Bob Dylan?

493

: 00:26:13

I mean, why Bob Dylan?

494

: 00:26:14

Jim: No.

495

: 00:26:15

Joshua: Oh no you don't.

496

: 00:26:15

Okay.

497

: 00:26:16

I thought that you'd be one of these

conversations with be like, "Well,

498

: 00:26:18

yeah, I had a chance encounter.

499

: 00:26:19

I've been friends with

him for like 50 years.

500

: 00:26:21

This has been awesome."

501

: 00:26:22

Jim: Yeah, and if I were, I

wouldn't be talking 'cause nobody

502

: 00:26:25

who knows him talks about him.

503

: 00:26:26

Joshua: Yeah.

504

: 00:26:26

Jim: He's a very private man.

505

: 00:26:28

Joshua: I want to give you that

honor though, for those that are

506

: 00:26:30

younger and never listened to Bob

Dylan, maybe you want to tell a

507

: 00:26:33

little bit of who Bob Dylan is.

508

: 00:26:36

Jim: Who is Bob Dylan, so I do

actually have a Bob Dylan podcast

509

: 00:26:39

called the Dylan Taunts . Believe

it or not, I do Bob Dylan research.

510

: 00:26:43

In fact, your audience can't see, but

right behind my head is a book that

511

: 00:26:46

recently came out with a ponderous title.

512

: 00:26:49

It came out from Rutledge.

513

: 00:26:50

I have a chapter in there.

514

: 00:26:52

That's a recent one, so I do scholarly

work on Dylan still, and I have a lot of

515

: 00:26:56

friends are in that, and I decided to do

a podcast that they can talk about what

516

: 00:26:59

they're up to, and it's expanded since

then, and we actually talk to people.

517

: 00:27:02

I just did an interview with a

family friend who's 19 years old and

518

: 00:27:07

saw Bob Dylan for the first time.

519

: 00:27:09

Joshua: Wow.

520

: 00:27:10

Jim: So we do people of all ages.

521

: 00:27:12

I'm a Gen Xer.

522

: 00:27:13

Of course there's a lot of baby boomers.

523

: 00:27:15

There's millennials involved.

524

: 00:27:16

We have Gen Zers now, so it's been

pretty interesting to sort of bridge

525

: 00:27:19

the generational divide, but so who

is Bob Dylan to answer your question?

526

: 00:27:23

Bob Dylan is primarily a

songwriter, and musician, and

527

: 00:27:27

singer, who started out in the 60s.

528

: 00:27:30

1961 was his first album, and he

was doing folk music, and he's often

529

: 00:27:36

associated with folk music, but he

branched out very much so into rock

530

: 00:27:40

in the mid 60s, and has done rock ever

since and some folk, but I wouldn't

531

: 00:27:45

classify him purely as a folk musician.

532

: 00:27:48

He is considered perhaps the

greatest songwriter in the world.

533

: 00:27:52

He is so amazing as a songwriter,

as a lyricist, that he won

534

: 00:27:57

the Nobel Prize 2016, which no

songwriter had ever done before.

535

: 00:28:02

Joshua: That's amazing.

536

: 00:28:03

Yeah.

537

: 00:28:04

Jim: Yeah.

538

: 00:28:04

He's a big deal.

539

: 00:28:05

There's a reason there's

conferences and books.

540

: 00:28:08

Your audience can't see this,

but there's several bookshelves

541

: 00:28:10

over there with books of Dylan.

542

: 00:28:12

People study him.

543

: 00:28:13

They think about him.

544

: 00:28:14

They listen to his music.

545

: 00:28:16

They go to his concerts.

546

: 00:28:17

Each and every one is different.

547

: 00:28:19

You can go see him two nights in a row.

548

: 00:28:20

He used to do different set lists.

549

: 00:28:22

Joshua: Yeah.

550

: 00:28:22

Jim: Now he has a static

set list, pretty much.

551

: 00:28:24

He might change up one or two songs, but

they can come across very differently.

552

: 00:28:28

82 years old.

553

: 00:28:29

He still performs.

554

: 00:28:31

He just announced some new

dates, and it's amazing.

555

: 00:28:34

It's an amazing experience.

556

: 00:28:35

It is not a nostalgia experience.

557

: 00:28:37

Lots of people go to these

concerts thinking they can hear

558

: 00:28:39

a little Bobby Dylan, playing in

the wind on his acoustic guitar.

559

: 00:28:43

Yeah.

560

: 00:28:44

You will be disappointed.

561

: 00:28:46

Joshua: Well, you know-

562

: 00:28:47

Jim: He changes everything.

563

: 00:28:48

Joshua: Well, I remember when

I was growing up, and they

564

: 00:28:51

were talking about Bob Dylan.

565

: 00:28:52

I don't think there were Bob Dylan

fans, because I definitely didn't

566

: 00:28:55

hear anything on the radio when I

was riding around with my dad's 88

567

: 00:28:59

Dodge Ram pickup truck, playing that

sort of music, but I will take your

568

: 00:29:03

word for it, Jim, that he was very

successful just being that millennial.

569

: 00:29:09

Jim: Amazing, and pretty much

any music you're listening to

570

: 00:29:11

now has a Bob Dylan influence.

571

: 00:29:13

Even hip hop draws on Bob Dylan.

572

: 00:29:16

Joshua: Jim, I have this one

final question and you're

573

: 00:29:18

probably going to be like, "Why

the heck are you asking me that?

574

: 00:29:21

That's really silly of you.", so I

somehow got a bridge Bob Dylan into

575

: 00:29:26

all this conversation that we've had

this last half hour and ask you this.

576

: 00:29:30

Do you want to be the Bob

Dylan of the speaking world.

577

: 00:29:37

I told you you're going to laugh at it.

578

: 00:29:38

Jim: Oh my god.

579

: 00:29:39

I don't know if I want to be

the Bob Dylan of anything.

580

: 00:29:42

Joshua: Yeah.

581

: 00:29:42

Jim: It's a tough life in some ways.

582

: 00:29:44

No, I don't want to be the Bob

Dylan of the speaking world.

583

: 00:29:46

I want to be the Jim Salvucci

of the speaking world.

584

: 00:29:48

I want to get on stages and I

want to help people in my way.

585

: 00:29:51

I don't need fame.

586

: 00:29:52

I don't need a house in Malibu.

587

: 00:29:55

I don't need to sell my speeches

for record amounts, and whatever.

588

: 00:29:58

No.

589

: 00:29:59

I have no interest in

that different ambition.

590

: 00:30:01

Joshua: That was the answer.

591

: 00:30:02

That was the answer I was looking

for, so you handled that very well.

592

: 00:30:05

I was getting nervous that maybe

if I asked it, you'd be like, "Uh.

593

: 00:30:09

Let's kind of avoid that question.",

but you handled that very well.

594

: 00:30:12

Be you.

595

: 00:30:13

That was the message I got out of

it, so with that said, Jim, we're at

596

: 00:30:17

the end of our time, but I want to

give you the last few minutes here.

597

: 00:30:20

I know that you do coaching.

598

: 00:30:21

You're entering the speaking world.

599

: 00:30:23

How can people reach out to you?

600

: 00:30:25

If they're interested in contacting

you, maybe they have some questions

601

: 00:30:28

being a young leader themselves that

they want to get some assistance with.

602

: 00:30:31

Maybe they have some pressing Bob Dylan

questions they want to ask you too.

603

: 00:30:35

Jim: You never know.

604

: 00:30:36

Joshua: Yeah.

605

: 00:30:36

You never know.

606

: 00:30:37

You never know.

607

: 00:30:37

Actually, I know of one friend, and

if that friend messages me, I will

608

: 00:30:41

let you know who that is, but how

can they get in contact with you?

609

: 00:30:44

I'll give you the last few minutes.

610

: 00:30:46

Jim: Yeah, so I have my website.

611

: 00:30:48

My company is Guidance for Greatness, and

my website is guidanceforgreatness.com.

612

: 00:30:53

Simple enough.

613

: 00:30:54

If you go to the bottom of

the homepage, there is a link.

614

: 00:30:58

Just sign in and you can receive

my newly gussied up freebie.

615

: 00:31:04

I have a free gift for people and it is

what I call the Transform to Greatness

616

: 00:31:09

Toolkit, and it is a way of helping people

guide themselves to great leadership,

617

: 00:31:18

starting with an exploration of their

values, and there's five points to it

618

: 00:31:22

and each one of them comes complete

with a tiny habit recipe, so you can

619

: 00:31:26

actually put things right into practice

and build some habits around it.

620

: 00:31:30

Also, I have a newsletter, blog,

and podcast I put out every week.

621

: 00:31:35

I just read the newsletter because

some people like to hear it

622

: 00:31:37

rather than read it, and that is

called On Leading With Greatness.

623

: 00:31:42

It's on Substack and it's at

jimsalvucci.substack.com, and

624

: 00:31:46

my last name is S A L V U C C

I, so jimsalvucci.substack.com.

625

: 00:31:53

Those are two primary ways to

interface with me, so you can check

626

: 00:31:56

out my newsletter and podcast, and

you could also go to my website.

627

: 00:32:01

Joshua: Jim, this was a

lot of great conversation.

628

: 00:32:04

I think that young leaders definitely need

to be mentored in this world, especially

629

: 00:32:08

this world that's ever changing.

630

: 00:32:10

That's the mission of even my coaching

business, Your Speaking Voice,

631

: 00:32:13

and I think that's so important to

continue this conversation in the

632

: 00:32:17

ways in which we can influence and

even navigate through those channels.

633

: 00:32:21

I think you gave some really important

advice, and of course, if Bob Dylan

634

: 00:32:26

wants to make a appearance and also

sing for us while we're doing that, that

635

: 00:32:29

would be just the cream of the crop.

636

: 00:32:33

Jim: I would not hold my breath.

637

: 00:32:34

Joshua: No.

638

: 00:32:34

I am not holding my breath either,

but just in case he falls across this.

639

: 00:32:38

Hello, Bob Dylan.

640

: 00:32:39

With all that said, Jim, thanks a lot for

being on Speaking from the Heart today.

641

: 00:32:43

It was a great honor to have you on.

642

: 00:32:45

Jim: I appreciate it, Joshua.

643

: 00:32:46

This has been great.

644

: 00:32:47

I enjoyed it.

645

: 00:32:48

Joshua: I want to thank Jim again for

being part of the show and sharing not

646

: 00:32:52

only his experiences as being a leader,

but also understanding that in the

647

: 00:32:57

context of the world that we live in,

there are all kinds of different people,

648

: 00:33:03

all kinds of different individuals that

we face, whether it's in our personal or

649

: 00:33:07

professional, even in our businesses that

we have to address, and sometimes we have

650

: 00:33:13

to do calculated risk to determine whether

we should be approaching them head on to

651

: 00:33:18

even deal with some of the problems that

they might bring, not only on themselves,

652

: 00:33:23

but on others for that matter, and I love

that our conversations circled around

653

: 00:33:28

a variety of different themes, because

it also creates this understanding that

654

: 00:33:32

it isn't just about one piece of the

overall puzzle that we're looking at.

655

: 00:33:35

It's looking at the whole perspective

that we might be the problem.

656

: 00:33:41

It isn't just about the individuals

that we interact with, but it might be

657

: 00:33:45

something that happens internally with us.

658

: 00:33:47

I think that we have to understand,

though, that when we go through

659

: 00:33:51

these processes, we go through these

conversations, we have to see it from

660

: 00:33:55

all sides, but it doesn't give you

an excuse to be a bully, and I love

661

: 00:34:01

that Jim said this exactly during

our interview, that if you bully

662

: 00:34:06

your employees, you are incompetent.

663

: 00:34:10

I believe we have to think about

that concept a little bit more,

664

: 00:34:14

even from what we have discussed

during today's interview, because

665

: 00:34:17

it isn't just about our employees.

666

: 00:34:20

It's about us.

667

: 00:34:22

It's about the things that we sometimes

stuff in a sack, as Jim put it, that we

668

: 00:34:27

often hide from the whole entire world

to address, because we have all these

669

: 00:34:32

different things happening to us, all

these different aspects of our life that

670

: 00:34:37

we might have credence to bully someone

else, it still doesn't give us the free

671

: 00:34:42

ticket to do the same, and that always

leads to some disastrous consequences,

672

: 00:34:49

especially if you're never thinking

about the other person's perspective.

673

: 00:34:54

During the interview, Jim talking

about this made me think about all

674

: 00:34:57

the different times in my life,

personally, in which I was bullied.

675

: 00:35:01

Growing up, I was teased so much about

my weight, the way that I looked, and

676

: 00:35:06

the way that I even handled myself, which

even on this show, I've talked about my

677

: 00:35:10

autism diagnosis, and how that has really

changed the game and understanding so

678

: 00:35:15

many different perspectives, not only

about myself, but about others as well.

679

: 00:35:20

It has helped me to understand a

perspective that oftentimes has

680

: 00:35:24

been misunderstood by others, but

at the same token, it has helped me

681

: 00:35:29

to learn so much about myself, and

to stop putting things in a sack,

682

: 00:35:35

to stop putting things away when I

know that I need to face it head on.

683

: 00:35:40

I think of leaders, even Bob Dylan,

which we talked about on the show

684

: 00:35:44

today, that helped us to understand

what that looks like, and Bob Dylan

685

: 00:35:49

does it through his music; other

people do it through their words.

686

: 00:35:53

We have amazing authors, amazing speakers.

687

: 00:35:56

We have all kinds of people that do

a variety of different trades, but we

688

: 00:36:01

have to learn that sometimes stuffing

it in a sack, hiding it away from the

689

: 00:36:05

world to understand what we're going

through, doesn't only hurt ourself,

690

: 00:36:11

but it hurts our overall ability

to grow with others, so if we are

691

: 00:36:16

bullying, not only are we incompetent,

but we're stunting our growth.

692

: 00:36:21

We're unable to move from that big

mountain range that we're stuck

693

: 00:36:25

on, being able to climb down.

694

: 00:36:28

We're oftentimes left alone, thinking that

we are doing the right things, but people

695

: 00:36:33

don't know how to approach us because

of the things that we have been through.

696

: 00:36:39

They don't know how to approach us

because we have been through some tough

697

: 00:36:42

challenges in our life, but we don't know

how to communicate those effectively,

698

: 00:36:48

but that is the key to all of this.

699

: 00:36:51

Even at a young age, you have to learn

how to communicate more effectively

700

: 00:36:56

so that you never have to go down that

path, which is why I ask my parents on

701

: 00:37:00

this show, talk to your children more.

702

: 00:37:02

Get them to open up.

703

: 00:37:04

Form a relationship, regardless

of how hard it might be.

704

: 00:37:07

Get them off their phones.

705

: 00:37:09

Get them to talk to you face to face.

706

: 00:37:11

It's time to have that conversation

because we're losing a generation

707

: 00:37:16

of people, kids for that matter,

that don't know how to communicate.

708

: 00:37:21

Thankfully, we have people like Dr.

709

: 00:37:23

Savucci that are willing to challenge

the status quo and help other people,

710

: 00:37:28

especially at a young age, willing

to learn the skills so that they can

711

: 00:37:32

celebrate those successes, but yes.

712

: 00:37:36

Those celebrations need to start

small, and grow ever bigger.

713

: 00:37:41

The concept of even doing a pushup,

which I can't even do myself,

714

: 00:37:44

and I know that I need to go back

in the gym and work out more.

715

: 00:37:48

That's something that I'm working

on here in the next few months with

716

: 00:37:51

my friends over at Next Generation

Personal Training, but I know that I

717

: 00:37:55

need to celebrate those small successes

when I restart my fitness journey.

718

: 00:38:00

Even if the things are very

small in nature, and they don't

719

: 00:38:04

matter to anyone else, we need

to celebrate them personally,

720

: 00:38:07

because the biggest cheerleader

that's in our corner is ourselves.

721

: 00:38:13

If we're able to enjoy what we have been

able to achieve, of course it's always

722

: 00:38:17

going to build upon itself, and that will

allow us to accomplish things that we

723

: 00:38:23

normally will never be able to accomplish.

724

: 00:38:26

I know that finding those

moments of enjoyment, that

725

: 00:38:30

emotion that we have inside of

ourselves, can be very difficult.

726

: 00:38:34

It can be very painful to overcome,

maybe even create that atmosphere of

727

: 00:38:39

understanding, having that level of

engagement, having those abilities that

728

: 00:38:44

we have to pull out of our sack, and

bring back to the light, and let the

729

: 00:38:48

things that are not so good about them,

be bleached by the sun, because if we're

730

: 00:38:54

able to do that, if we're able to create

that context in our life in which we are

731

: 00:38:59

no longer being viewed as the bully, if

we're able to overcome the things that

732

: 00:39:04

we have standing in our way and be able

to lead from the front, we are not just

733

: 00:39:10

leaders, but we're also part of a team.

734

: 00:39:14

Jim said something very miniscule that I

want to point out that is really important

735

: 00:39:19

to this whole entire conversation,

and it's the difference between what

736

: 00:39:23

a manager is, and what a leader is.

737

: 00:39:26

Now you might have taken his conversation

today to mean more about the workplace

738

: 00:39:31

and what's typically involved with

going through that process of having

739

: 00:39:35

a manager versus a leader, but this

application also happens in our life.

740

: 00:39:41

We have families.

741

: 00:39:42

We have friends.

742

: 00:39:44

We have people that are personally close

to us that might look at us as a leader,

743

: 00:39:50

but sometimes we're playing the role of

a manager, because we're helping them

744

: 00:39:53

get through the different obstacles

that are happening in their life.

745

: 00:39:57

It's important to wear not just the

manager hat in our lives, but also the

746

: 00:40:02

leader hat, because if we're able to do

both of those, not only are we able to

747

: 00:40:07

push ourselves forward, not only are we

able to create that important context,

748

: 00:40:11

not only are we able to demonstrate

that we're effective in what we're

749

: 00:40:15

supposed to be doing and what we're

supposed to be creating, we are able to

750

: 00:40:19

find things in our life that not only

give us moments of enjoyment, but also

751

: 00:40:26

engagement of the emotion, the living

essence of why we as human beings thrive.

752

: 00:40:35

Twelve years ago, I made a decision to

join Toastmasters, which for my longterm

753

: 00:40:39

listeners, you know what it's all about,

but for those that are just joining,

754

: 00:40:43

Toastmasters is an amazing organization.

755

: 00:40:45

It's international; across the world.

756

: 00:40:48

If you're ever interested in checking out

Toastmasters, go to www.toastmasters.org,

757

: 00:40:53

and I'll leave a link in the episode

notes in which you can check out

758

: 00:40:57

a club that's closest to you.

759

: 00:41:00

Dr.

760

: 00:41:00

Ralph Smedley, the founder of that

organization, always said that we learn

761

: 00:41:06

best in the moments of enjoyment, and

I've been challenged even recently in

762

: 00:41:10

one of my Toastmaster clubs to challenge

that status quo, to keep on moving my

763

: 00:41:15

needle forward, especially with the

new generation, especially with the new

764

: 00:41:19

members of our club that know nothing

about what Toastmasters really stands for.

765

: 00:41:25

This is a moment that has

come full circle for me.

766

: 00:41:29

I have been a manager and I have

been a leader, but I have never

767

: 00:41:33

been a manager and leader at the

same time like I am right now for

768

: 00:41:38

my very club that I belong to.

769

: 00:41:40

It has been something that I have really

enjoyed, but at the same time, it has

770

: 00:41:45

gotten me emotional about why it's so

important to be able to lead, to be

771

: 00:41:50

able to communicate, to not be a bully,

because there was a lot of bullying that

772

: 00:41:54

was happening at this particular club,

but now the status quo has been changing

773

: 00:42:00

because now they have seen the light.

774

: 00:42:03

They have seen the opportunities that

even if you celebrate very small,

775

: 00:42:07

which is what we do in Toastmasters,

we're able to create that enjoyment

776

: 00:42:12

where it really counts the most.

777

: 00:42:15

I know that it's so easy for us on a daily

basis to just stuff the things that have

778

: 00:42:19

really hurt us, and have really truly

caused pain and frustration, into a sack.

779

: 00:42:25

Putting it behind a wall.

780

: 00:42:27

Just deleting it, especially if it's an

email that we don't like, but sometimes

781

: 00:42:32

those are the things that we need to read.

782

: 00:42:35

That is the feedback that we often

times need to receive in order to

783

: 00:42:39

keep moving, to keep growing, to keep

being the best versions of ourselves.

784

: 00:42:45

Remember that when you do something

right, it's okay to celebrate it.

785

: 00:42:49

Even those very small things can

make all the difference in terms

786

: 00:42:52

of not only what you're creating,

but also what you're enjoying.

787

: 00:42:57

What we have as an experiment happening

in America, and all across the world,

788

: 00:43:02

which has been happening since human

civilization began, is how we connect with

789

: 00:43:07

each other, through storytelling, music,

folklore, all kinds of other things.

790

: 00:43:15

I can understand why Dr.

791

: 00:43:16

Salvucci really likes Bob Dylan, and

why he enjoys listening and learning

792

: 00:43:21

more about Bob Dylan's success.

793

: 00:43:25

It's really simple if you think about it.

794

: 00:43:27

It's a passion.

795

: 00:43:29

It's something that we can

all come together around.

796

: 00:43:32

We can enjoy those moments, even if

it's around music: rock and roll,

797

: 00:43:36

folk music, regardless of what it is.

798

: 00:43:39

We don't have to be bullies

when it comes to a commonality.

799

: 00:43:43

We don't have to stuff that away.

800

: 00:43:45

We can be loud and be very proud

of these types of things to

801

: 00:43:50

celebrate, because those are the

things that bring us together.

802

: 00:43:54

So if we can do that with music, if we

can do that with writing, if we can do

803

: 00:43:58

that with any type of creative adventure,

can't we do it for our leadership?

804

: 00:44:04

Can we stop being bullies to each

other and find common ground?

805

: 00:44:08

I think this is so timely, especially

in a world that sometimes is

806

: 00:44:12

ridiculed, condemned, and complaining

about why society has failed.

807

: 00:44:19

We just need to get back to the basics,

and if we can learn how to lead, if we

808

: 00:44:23

can learn how to grow, if we can learn

how to even celebrate, trust me on that.

809

: 00:44:30

Not only are you going to be

better, we are all going to

810

: 00:44:34

be better at the same time.

811

: 00:44:37

Thanks for listening to episode

number 136 of Speaking From the

812

: 00:44:41

Heart, and I look forward to

hearing from your heart very soon.

813

: 00:44:46

Outro: Thanks for listening.

814

: 00:44:47

For more information about our podcast

and future shows, search for Speaking From

815

: 00:44:51

The Heart to subscribe and be notified

wherever you listen to your podcasts.

816

: 00:44:56

Visit us at www.yourspeakingvoice.biz

for more information about potential

817

: 00:45:02

services that can help you create

the best version of yourself.

818

: 00:45:07

See you next time.